Friday, April 17, 2009

Love Letter or Warning Letter

I have been a Christian since I was a primary school kid, attending an AOG church for about 30 years before joining New Creation Church in Oct 2003. Having experienced both churches, I can say that my Chrisitian walk has changed radically after I started attending NCC and this is because NCC has taught me one crucial thing ie. have a good opinion of God.

Having a good opinion of God has fundamentally changed the way I interact with God, and I am now beginning to enjoy a closer relationship with God. When you have a good opinion of God, you say "God is love." Full stop. When you open up the bible, you see God's love splashed all over it - the bible becomes God's love letter to you.

However, when you do not have a good opinion of God, you say "God is love BUT ...". Many Christians still do not have a good opinion of God and I feel sad for them because they cannot enjoy true intimacy with God. They say "God is love BUT God is holy", hence they have this perception that God is like a disciplinary master, always watching to catch them do wrong and punish them, and bring them back in line. When they open up the bible, they see God's wrath everywhere - the bible becomes God's warning letter to them.

When disasters happen or they suffer setbacks in their lives, some Christians get angry with God, asking God why He is doing all these things to them while some Christians do the opposite, meekly accepting all these bad things as God's will, saying "God is love BUT God is sovereign". They react this way because they do not have a good opinion of God. If they do have a good opinion of God, then they would know that God wants us to have an abundant life; it is the devil who is doing all these to them for he steals, kills and destroys (John 10:10).

When we encounter passages in the bible that are difficult to understand, the way we interpret those passages will differ greatly depending on whether we treat the bible as God's love letter or warning letter to us. Let's take a look at John 5:1-12 which tells us the story of Jesus healing a man, who was lame for 38 years, on the Sabbath.

Jesus commanded the man, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.", and immediately the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked (vv8-9). The pharisees saw the man carrying the mat and confronted him, saying "It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat."

The man replied, "The man who made me well said to me, 'Pick up your mat and walk.' " So they asked him, "Who is this fellow who told you to pick it up and walk?"(vv11-12) Take note that the healed man told the pharisees "the man who made me well said ..." BUT the pharisees asked "who is this fellow who told you to pick ...". The pharisees were not rejoicing at God's grace and mercy upon the healed man but they were focused on God's law on the Sabbath being broken.

The pharisees interpreted God's word narrowly, not seeing God's love in His Word but seeing only God's wrath and consequences for "breaking the law of the Sabbath". However, Jesus gave them a different interpretation based on God's love; Jesus challenged them in Luke 6:9 - "I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?" They refused to answer him, but Jesus gave them the answer by proceeding to heal a man with a shriveled right hand right in front of them.

Jesus interpreted God's Word on the Sabbath this way: "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." (Matthew 12:11-12)

O, can you see God's love in His Word?

41 comments:

Anonymous said...

dun tok so much lah. show prove. brin 'gods love' to hospital lah and made sure u call the press to write story of 'healing' raise dead lah. LOL

Jerry said...

I agree that having a good opinion of God is important. God is love AND holy AND sovereign. There are no contradictions and they are not mutually exclusive views of him. God's holiness is on our side and not against us, that's why we are saved through grace and not works. God is sovereign; he is omnipotent and omniscience. That doesn't mean that he is therefore responsible for any diseases and mishaps. In fact, I have hope because he is sovereign and capable of turning all situations for my good. Just my 2 cents worth.

Thy Word Is Truth said...

It is crucial to have a TRUE and CORRECT opinion of God. Is the God of the Bible good? Of course, he is. Is the God of the Bible Sovereign ? Of course, he is. Can man, as a creature say we can twist the arms of God and make Him do our own will and our way and that God's sovereign purpose can be thwarted ? If so we are only making a "god" of our imagination. The God of the Bible is UNCHANGEABLE and FAITHFUL and ALMIGHTY and HOLY God. The amazing fact is that He is a God of GRACE, that is why it is amazing grace. The SOVEREIGN God of the Bible can be trusted. Then whatever lot that come a believer's way, we can submit to Him and can always trust Him. Because He is the unchangeable God who always does good. No matter what, a believer can always rejoice and rest in Him.

"Faith endures as seeing Him who is invisible (Heb. 11:27); endures the disappointments, the hardships, and the heart-aches of life, by recognizing that all comes from the hand of Him who is too wise to err and too loving to be unkind. But so long as we are occupied with any other object than God Himself, there will be neither rest for the heart nor peace for the mind. But when we receive all that enters our lives as from His hand, then, no matter what may be our circumstances or surroundings—whether in a hovel or prison-dungeon, or at a martyr's stake—we shall be enabled to say, " The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places" (Ps. 16:6). But that is the language of faith, not of sight nor of sense." Arthur Pink

Daughter Of Sarah said...

Indeed. Andrew Wommack was talking about how Grace and Faith compliment each other in his book "You've Already Got it! {so Quit Trying To Get It}"

In it he discusses the following-

We are saved by grace through faith (see Eph 2:8). It takes both not just one. =)

Grace is:

1) unmerited favour
2) something God did for you, independent of you.
3) it made the provision for our salvation some 2000 years agi before we were created, before we could even sin.
4) it is consistent - not based on our performance but on the faithfulness of God & he is no respector of persons (ie he does not play favourites).
5) It does not save us alone, it does not heal us by its own, it does not bless us - unless we receive it and mix it with FAITH.

What is Faith?

It is not something you do to twist God's arm.

It is not just abt confessing his Word- those are things we do out of faith.

Faith does not make God do anything more than He already is doing.

Faith is not God responding to something we do. That causes us to feel like we must perform and produce or else... =p

None of us can move God. Faith doesn't move God.

What faith is is this- our positive response to what God has already provided by gace.

If what we call faith is not a response to what God has already done, then it is not true Faith.

Faith does not try to get God to positively respond to you. It is our positive response, our good opinion of what He has done for us by grace.

Faith only appropriates what God has already provided by faith. If we are trying to do something hew, then it is not faith.

True faith reaches out, receives what God has already done.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

There are people who are getting healed by God. It is just that we do not go around telling the press to come and report it.

We do not have to.

The main purpose that we go around encouraging or healing or building up people's lives is done out of a love for these people. God gets all the glory.

So please stop being childish and making irritating remarks like what you have done.

By the way, please identify yourself. If not, since you do not believe in a loving God who heals, who saves and who is interested in transforming your life for the better, please restrain yourself for making smug remarks that do not edify others.

You have however every right to still read the articles here. After all, this is not my blog.

And don't bother to reply me. Like you, I am just a visitor. Unlike you, I am not here to pick up a fight.

Sincerely,
Peggy
P.S. Stanley, sorry for making such comments at your site.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

I've ONE MORE remark to add for you.

Please go and brush up YOUR SPELLING and GRAMMAR (English, please) first before posting any more comments here. That is if you are still getting the kicks out of your own childish behaviour to post smug comments at other people's blogs to gain attention.

I know you are very deprived of attention. But PLEASE... brush up your ENGLISH first.

Thank you for sparing a thought for other visitors to this blog.

Sincerely,
Peggy

Daughter Of Sarah said...

Lol Peggy =) Very frank comments. I understand how you feel. =p

Anon,
When Jesus healed, there were oft times when he would tell the healed to not tell anyone about it. The important thing is not making a big circus show out of it, but about the person having received forgiveness, is now able to move on and live a life filled with the grace of God through Christ Jesus.

There is no shortage of testimonies of God's goodness and mercy online, be it on our blogs, on the websites of the many local and foreign churches (not just our own), as well as via word of mouth. If you look around, you will easily find them. But it takes faith to even believe that those are miracles. Some people can attribute these to chance, fate, science... so there is no point going into the whole discourse with you if you have decided either miracles don't exist and people are fools for believing it, or that God doesn't exist and people are idiots to believe that as well. This is because whatever we say will mean nothing to you if you have already decided that it has no value.

I don't need anyone to affirm my relationship with Jesus or whether God exists because through my life experiences, I have always seen His presence and thumb prints over every trial I've been through and the victory that follows. I am sure Stan, Angie, Peggy, Malcolm, Jeff and the rest can honestly say the same.

A young kid once asked me how I know God exists and I told him it is not just about reading the bible and going to church to find out, but opening the door to your heart and giving God a chance to have a relationship with you. You only get to know a person when you decide to have a relationship with the person, it is the same with God. If you refuse to get to know Him, He is gentleman enough to respect that opinion- although He knows everything about you and is more than willing to love you and show you His love if you will receive Him.

I feel sad that you're so insecure about your faith you find that you must insult people who believe that God is faithful, and who've gladly received that gift with a joyful heart. I agree with Peggy that it is very immature. It's like a sport for you , shooting verbal paint balls at these "holy shmoly Christians" or "Christians who believe in (what you think is) cheap grace (which it isn't)" .

I don't know why bitterness has taken such a deep root in your heart, but I hope that you will one day let go of it because it will poison everything you touch in the long run. I say this from personal experiences and well, it is up to you whether you want to take the advice up or deride it as tom foolery.

I don't know you from Adam and you don't know anyone of us personally, so no one appreciates the baseless accusations being made about us by you.

I advice you to take your potty shots elsewhere because we are a reasonable people who welcome sincere debate but who do not appreciate troublemakers and hyenas who "drive by and shoot" their mouths off at others and find sadistic joy in it.

I think it is great Stan has been hospitable enough to keep his comment page open to people, and like good and responsible guests we respect that hospitality. You should too.

Having said that, may the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ be with you. Where sin abounds, grace super abounds. Thank God for that because we all need that amazing grace... esp when dealing with mortally unloveable people. Thank God for His unconditional love that we can try to draw from. =ppp

Jesus loves you. Yup. He does.

jerry said...

It is crucial to have a TRUE and CORRECT opinion of God.

>Of course, and i suggest the best way, look at Jesus.

Can man, as a creature say we can twist the arms of God and make Him do our own will and our way and that God's sovereign purpose can be thwarted ?

>Nobody can twist the arm of God even if we want to. God's sovereign purpose can never be thwarted. But then again, we still pray and send our petitions to him knowing that our concerns are important to him. If it is according to his will, it will be done. The difference is, our opinion of God is that he is willing and able to give in to our request at times as long as it is good for us.

The SOVEREIGN God of the Bible can be trusted. Then whatever lot that come a believer's way, we can submit to Him and can always trust Him.

>Precisely that we trust him and that's why we know that God will not allow harm to come to us; that is having a good opinion of God

Because He is the unchangeable God who always does good. No matter what, a believer can always rejoice and rest in Him.

>And we can see that God always take care of his children, that's the basis for rest.

My 2 cents worth again.

Mouse said...

Somebody said "There are people who are getting healed by God. It is just that we do not go around telling the press to come and report it."

Not picking a fight also. But cannot let this type of statement slip quietly away. The person is trying to put a point across but says that the point cannot be justified. So the statement is an empty statement. I find people in religion tends to use this type of unsubstantiable statements to try to sway others to their religion. But again, it's really an empty statement that we should always be wary of !

Not picking a fight. Just making a statement.

Mouse said...

Actually I cannot understand why God or Jesus wants to use miracle as a form of conversion. While it converts, it also cause a lot of problems.

Many years back, I saw a documentary. It shows how black magic in Africa can be used to do healing. Somebody can do a surgery and they wound heal immediately by "magic". And others.

The devil is also very capable of doing this type of show. So in the end, people cannot tell who is who.

Any explanation welcome. Don't intend to argue.

No sarcasm please. I'm already sick of it.

And don't ask me who I am. I don't intend to eat ice kachang with you. Just want to share my thoughts.

Anonymous said...

aiyoh. why you chiristians so like tat wan.we say so little words, ask only for prove, you christians say so much nasty thing about us asking you for prove like..bitter,jeallus, england bad,insecure lah,immature lah,no life lah.. scold us on the right then talk about grace love on the left aiyoyo, you people got mind problem or not? lol.

so simple. your bible says...faith without works is dead. we can see u like to boast abut yur faith so we simple ask...show us your works lor

works is prove mah. without prove yur faith bluff bluff lah.

so we only ask..u say yur god can heal raise dead. we say ok. we hear u.we give u chance.

but u go one big big round tok god love,tok grace tis tok grace tat.. tok what theory of faith ba ba ba

like...why tell so much cow and bull theory when you can just walk into hospital, give u random choice pick one very very sick person...do like jesus do...heal the sick person...and then hor..go raise one dead person...thats all mah.

so difficul meh? like that...no argue lor. all eyes can see when u claim is true or not lor and press can write beutiful story about how powderful yr god is lor and we critic silent liao lor maybe also go yur church lor and give u money lor lol

why need so many saliva right and scold us tis scold us tat becus we ask prove? lol

u got faith we say....very good.

now show us yur faith by your works..yur bible say wan mah...mean..proof yur faith lor

simple right?

press video cam ready...now u can get all your most aanoyed leeders to appoint time with our reporters and doctors and some public independent ppl and you can do yur healing and raise dead no need whole hospital sick people hor ...i am sure yur jesus can do tat but just only two..one very very sick one and one dead one only...very very little we ask you annoyed leeder do

can? you not scare right? you won give excuse right? jesus heal right and raise dead right....so...prove lor..if not,sorry lah. hogwash..lol

Stanley Wong said...

Hi Mouse,

"There are people who are getting healed by God. It is just that we do not go around telling the press to come and report it." is not an empty statement.

In NCC, there have been a number of testimonies by members who have been miraculously healed and these are backed up by medical reports.

We are not boasting about miracles to "convert" people to become Christians. These miracles were shared with fellow church members to encourage us that God is good, God is almighty and God loves us.

By the way, my blog is mainly meant for fellow Christians to discuss and debate things we have learnt in our different churches, and not as a platform to prove to non-Christians our faith and win them over.

I hope you haven't gotten sick after reading this comment but may I suggest that you don't torture yourself and keep coming back if you get sick here so often.

Thy Word Is Truth said...

To Jerry's response
AMEN.
Our faith must be in a Sovereign Savior Lord Jesus Christ and God of Bible: we can always trust and rest upon Him NO MATTER WHAT. God is ALL in ALL. This must be the true and correct view of God whom we have profess to have surrendered to, submitted to and in obedience to.
Shalom

Daughter Of Sarah said...

And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12 so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.”

- Mark 4:11,12

Mouse said...

Stanley says "In NCC, there have been a number of testimonies by members who have been miraculously healed and these are backed up by medical reports."

So does Buddhist and Muslim. They also have the same claim. And people also witness cancer patients being cured and so on. Act of whom ?

Mouse said...

Stanley said "I hope you haven't gotten sick after reading this comment but may I suggest that you don't torture yourself and keep coming back if you get sick here so often."

I read before you claim one Anon twisting your words. But here, you exploited a double meaning of the word sick.

Anonymous said...

I hope the relevant authorities are reading this.
People who are irrational and out of touch with reality are detrimental to society.
I hope they don't hold key appointment in society.
I certainly don't want my children to talk like them.

Anonymous said...

dun get us wrong. we are not against the bible or jesus.

we r against idiotic christians who misinterpret the bible and jesus teachings. lol

Mouse said...

"I hope you haven't gotten sick after reading this comment but may I suggest that you don't torture yourself and keep coming back if you get sick here so often."

"No, Christianity does not make me more sarcastic ... it's just my style ... if anything, Christianity tends to hold me back sometimes as I bite my tongue and resist the temptation to rub more salt."

Signs of a man who does not want to improve. He claims Christianity helps him hold back yet, he is contented to go on spilling sarcasm. Another problem with Grace over-preaching ?

Anonymous said...

we ask A, they reply B. we ask C, they tak D.

lawyer ask...whats your name? they reply, my daddy very rich

lawyer ask...where do you live? they reply, my uncle very happy

lawyer ask...where is the money you have taken? they reply...see, my son scored 5As in his exams

imagine, this kind of people work in our society. cannot talk straight, cannot think straight.

put a straight forward question them, they don't reply accordingly.

how to arrive to truth?

and truth is, they rather believe in lies or live in the fantasy of their leaders

Anonymous said...

Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons."

Matt 10:25 "It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul( SATAN), how much more will they malign the members of his household!

Anonymous said...

the lord said...let's reason. but are they capable of reasoning? aiyooo,can't talk straight, can't even think straight how to reason?

think they are better at skirting the issues and engage in chicken duck talk deliberately less they found out to be frauds. LOL.

The Logical Mouse said...

Jesus could have done the miracle on a day other than Sabbath. Why does he choose to do it on Sabbath ? He brings 1 person closer to God and at the same time, create enemies. These are self-created problems which can be easily avoided.

The Logical Mouse said...

Malcolm: yep. like what ps prince said last week, persecution is a sign that you are on the right track. it is better to be blessed and persecuted

Pastor Prince gets $500k for being persecuted. Good deal.

The Logical Mouse said...

Stanley

Malcolm: yep. like what ps prince said last week, persecution is a sign that you are on the right track. it is better to be blessed and persecuted

Take AWARE as an example. Now, people are writing to disapprove of the new officials. So I guess they are being persecuted and they are also on the right track ?

Any statements can be used both ways. You need to "wake up", take a step back, analyse it. Can't just accept, else can be easily manipulated.

Please, I beg you.

Malcolm Loh said...

At least Prince and Josie stand up for what they believe in. How about you, taking cowardly potshots?

Sorry if I don't respond to you in future because it hard to have any respect for people who hide behind cloaks.

The Logical Mouse said...

Malcome says: "At least Prince and Josie stand up for what they believe in. How about you, taking cowardly potshots?

Sorry if I don't respond to you in future because it hard to have any respect for people who hide behind cloaks."

Malcolm. Yes. Stand up for what you believe, regardless of right and wrong. So do the people who acted in 9/11 and those who bombed the Taj Mahal Hotel. Malcolm, would you end up like them one day ? I can't imagine all our societies taken over by the likes of the people in the AWARE official now. I guess you will never get the point but I hope Stanley does.

It's ok you don't reply cause I don't find much value in what you write anyway. And I definitely don't need your respect... have you thought whether I have any for you ?

Stanley, please. This is a clear cut case. If you don't see it, I'll be very sad.

Stanley Wong said...

Hi Logical Mouse,

Firstly, you said "Pastor Prince gets $500k for being persecuted." - this statement is not logical as it would mean that Pastor Prince was persecuted first and then received $500k.

However, the fact is that Pastor Prince received his $500k salary first, then it was reported in the papers and then all the persecution came in. Therefore the logical statement should be "Pastor Prince is persecuted for getting $500k." - this is a clear cut case. If you don't see it, I'll be very sad.

Secondly, you said "I can't imagine all our societies taken over by the likes of the people in the AWARE official now." I think it is still premature to make any conclusions about the new Aware team as they have not begun any work yet. Let's give them at least 6 months to show what they can achieve.

Thirdly, if you really believe in what you say and are out to help others (including me), then why not use your real name and update your online profile? It is hard to believe in someone who insists on wearing a face mask when he wants to talk to you, don't you think?

The Logical Mouse said...

Stanley

People talking about NCC already before the 500K lah. It's easy to say being persecuted implies that one is on the right track if he's getting 500k for it. NCC people trys to defend him (persecuted) and yet he does not answer (500K). Good deal !

Don't focus on a statment, see how it's being applied. Can be easily manipulated like that !!

Wait for 6 months ? You don't even see that taking over AWARE itself is not correct ? They can stand up for their belief in other ways. Does their belief justify what they have done ? So if it means to kill, it's justfied also !!!???

Stanley Wong said...

Hi Logical Mouse,

Interestingly, you did not address the third point of my previous comment. I read in the papers that several members of the new Aware team have stood up for their belief by writing letters to the press (which were published) using their REAL NAMES.

The new Aware team were also elected according to the EXISTING PROCEDURES set up by Aware. Is there anything incorrect in that? The papers reported that normally only about 40 people turn up for their AGM, which really reflects apathy on the part of the members. Whereas previously the Aware elections were just a matter of routine or rubber stamping the long-time veterans, I think the successful takeover bid by the new Aware team has shaken and woken up the whole organization and this is a good thing.

If this new team together with new members want to achieve something for and through Aware, then it is only fair that they be given time to prove their worth. In any case, the veterans or those unhappy with the new team can always mount their own challenge and win back the positions they have lost in the next elections. In fact, it seems that the old guard are now mustering up support for an EGM - in line with Aware's EXISTING PROCEDURES - to do exactly that.

We all know killing is wrong but let me ask you ... would you kill if our country is under attack? Like you said, don't focus on a statement, see how it's being applied.

You are right that people are already talking about NCC before the 500k issue but never before at this unprecedented level - just take a look at the number of pages of comments on the asiaone forum and ST comments - like you said, don't focus on a statement, see how it's being applied.

The Logical Mouse said...

Dear Stanley

Wrt killing. I was talking in the context of religious persecution. So under what circumstances is killing justified ? Ok. You don’t have to answer. We don’t want both of us to get in trouble with the law on this one.

Stanley said “You are right that people are already talking about NCC before the 500k issue but never before at this unprecedented level - just take a look at the number of pages of comments on the asiaone forum and ST comments - like you said, don't focus on a statement, see how it's being applied.”

And the point is ? Sorry I don’t get it ??

And … when I mentioned AWARE, I’m not talking about how legally they got their positions. I’m saying they are being targeted by people for their take over. People are complaining that they should not take over in such a manner. So they are “persecuted” ? So going by Pastor Prince statement, they are on the right track ?

Daughter Of Sarah said...

Logical Mouse, why don't you start your own blog to rant about your personal issues rather than hijack another person's blog? =p

I just don't understand what is your point in doing this except because you take merriment in being quarrelsome.

Mal: Understand where you're coming from. Think it is a wise move.

spreespree said...

Mouse said...
Actually I cannot understand why God or Jesus wants to use miracle as a form of conversion. While it converts, it also cause a lot of problems.

Many years back, I saw a documentary. It shows how black magic in Africa can be used to do healing. Somebody can do a surgery and they wound heal immediately by "magic". And others.

The devil is also very capable of doing this type of show. So in the end, people cannot tell who is who.

Any explanation welcome. Don't intend to argue.

No sarcasm please. I'm already sick of it.

And don't ask me who I am. I don't intend to eat ice kachang with you. Just want to share my thoughts.

-----------------------------------

This posting is meant to address the above. Pardon me if I'm getting anything wrong, because I'm getting kind of confused with all the postings by this "mouse" and that "mouse" but just to clarify, you are a non christian who found stanley's blog and have posted some comments to "share your thoughts" and have some form of explanation regarding the miraculous healings that you see these people talking about, am I right?

Well, from reading some of the posts above, I understand that Stanley uses this blog as a platform for believers to discuss some issues,and "not as a platform to prove to non-Christians our faith and win them over." In light of this, I respect his blog entirely but because I have read your posting and I see that you have an interest to know more (whether sincere or not i really can't tell and i'm not going to judge and i'm in no position to judge), I'm going to leave my email address behind so that you can really ask me anything you would like to know more about instead of continuing posting comments that are not being answered on this platform.

I was from a Buddhist/taoist background in the past and I understand exactly where you are coming from when you said "the devil is also capable of doing this kind of show". I'm more than willing to explain and clarify any misunderstandings with you through email if you are sincere to find out more.

I would like to say that what you get from Christians is not equivalent to what you get from God. I will not for one moment deny that these people are true believers who love God and are the righteouesness of God in Chirst, but since Stanley has made it clear that his blog i not the place to "prove to non-Christians our faith and win them over", may I suggest that you find a better platform if you are really open to finding out and learning?

That's all.
God bless you.
Sarah
amethystar@gmail.com

The Logical Mouse said...

hungribunni
I also want to stop. Tired.
But Stanley's signboard says "The Logical Christian". I don't find him very logical! Still can't stop yet.
Actually, you won't believe me. I'm concern for you people. I find the logic and thinking here not very straight! In my encounters with Christians, I also see similar situations. When it's illogical, they says it's Faith. Of course, there you go again… you say.. hey, you don’t study the bible like me, and so on. If you see some of my comments and replies, you (if you are fair and logical) will see what I mean.
Please read my other comments (the one before this in another post). Faith is important. But blind Faith makes a person easily follow the wrong path (I’m just stating a statement here. Not insinuating anyone, just my general observation). If you do a little challenging, and verified your doubts, I assure you, your faith will be even stronger (and talk less illogical things).
Of course, again, you say, we do discuss. Try to see from an outsider point perspective.
How does a person show that his faith is strong? If a person ever worries about worldly things, the faith is not strong. God will always take care of you. So why worry? But all around me, I see Christian worried about money, children’s grades, job security, home loans, BMW, tailor clothes, condo. Where’s the faith?
Because a person “blindly” believes, the person does not let his faith grows. In fact, the faith didn't even start!
I know I'm fighting a loosing battle. But I want to try some more. Hope you can see my point.

Hisdisciple said...

Joseph Prince’s ministry finds its roots in what many people have referred to as the Word Faith Movement. Proponents of this movement include E W Kenyon(whose writings gave rise to most of the radical ideas that inform the movement), Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer et al. They teach a collective theology which propounds that God has promised to bless His people based on His finished work on the cross, as well as the believer’s positive confession of faith (in other words, if you speak forth your need, and lay hold of it by faith, the spoken need will in due time come to pass. Put simply, if I desire a car, I claim it in Jesus’ name, and the car will come my way).

Critics have written quite extensively on Word Faith teachings, so i will not talk further about it here. What I do want to highlight is that JP’s teaching over the last ten years has not moved beyond the whole theme of justification by faith. In fact, there has been no mention of the sanctification process or the need for it. In his teachings, believers become righteous from appropriating the finished work on the cross. There is no need to work out one’s salvation, one simply needs to “rest”.

JP’s teaching on Grace suggests a lack of basic understanding of God’s redemptive work. The Martin Luthers and Calvinists will tell you the only time a believer ever takes a rest in his walk with God is when he is getting saved through the finished work of Christ. One can’t earn salvation through his own good work, but he can by His grace and mercy as demonstrated by His outstretched arms on the cross. This is the turning point in a sinner’s life, when the sinner decides to take up the cross and follow Jesus, so that more and more he can be called to be in His image.

Positionally, the believer is forever saved, but the old man in him still needs to be transformed. Now, this walk of sanctification, JP Ministry completely ignores. It is interesting that JP perceives any effort on the believer’s part to act out God’s imperatives as the believer’s attempt to keep the law. He teaches that under the New Convenant, one does not keep the Law, but lives only by God’s grace. So, according to him, God has not only rescinded the need to keep the ceremonial laws, He has categorically abolished all laws, including the Decalogue!

My questions for all to consider:

1. If God has truly abolished the Decalogue, which reveals His moral character and absolute standards for human decency, then what should a believer hold fast to in order to live out his faith in a corrupt and decadent world? “We are in the world, but not of the world.” God also calls us “the salt of the earth”. What keeps us salty if God removes His standards/values for us? What is Grace? Is it a form of moral standard by which we can define and govern our thought life and behaviour?

2. If,according to JP’s theology, those of us who are trying to work out our salvation with fear and trembling are guilty of earning our salvation through our own “stinking efforts”, then what is the Holy Spirit for in our lives?

Thy Word Is Truth said...

To Hisdisciple,
AMEN
Shalom

The Logical Mouse said...

Stanlety said "I think it is still premature to make any conclusions about the new Aware team as they have not begun any work yet. Let's give them at least 6 months to show what they can achieve."

Ha... it didn't take 6 months. Fortunately, the majority of the people can tell right from wrong. People who can see that the take over is not correct. Unfortunately, Stanley does not think that way!

The Logical Mouse said...

Now, Sarah (amethystar@gmail.com) aka spreespree is a disappointment. After getting the invitation from her to discuss offline. I wrote to her on Apr 21. She replied on the same day and asked me to give her 2-3 days to get back to me. Now, it's May 4. No news.

Write such a long and nice sounding comment to tempt me but leave me high and dry. Can't keep a promise, don't make one.

Christ cleanse your sins but you just turn away a possible sheep... What would He think ?

walkingrace- said...

Logical Mouse:

please note that all of our lives, including mine, does not revolve around you. for your information, i have just finished my exams today and only have time proper today to read more and email you. (and hence you realise i have not been posting or reading this blog lately either)

i did mention that i will get back to you soon, But i also asked you for your name outside of this post, and you didn't even have the basic courtesy to reply with your name. i also asked you whether you were a believer, and you refused to answer the question. i really don't understand why you expect people to reply you when you don't reply them. double standards?

and i don't understand what you are so angry about. why are you sounding so bitter all the time? (even though i have a feeling you're just going to outright deny it anyway.) its as if your whole life is about coming back to this blog and making yourself unhappy. i really don't understand.

unlike you however, i do not revolve my whole life around reading your entries and entertaining you. and none of the christians here owe you a living as well.

when i first approached you it was because i thought you were a non believer who was sincerely interested in finding out more. but now that i've talked to you, it seems like you're not. i then really cant find a reason to explain things to you, at all.

Sarha.

The Logical Mouse said...

Dear Sarha or Sarah, whoever you are.

1. Did you at anytime You asked me whether I'm a believer ? You asked me whether I'm a Christian ? When ?

2. You asked me for my name. I told you just called me Logical Mouse. Did you say that your response is on the condition that I reveal my true identity ? NO. If you had written that, I won't be angry with you since that is the condition. But you did not state that. And please do not say I'm discourteous. I have replied. Just that you are not satisfied with the reply but you kept it in your own mind, expecting me to read your mind. BUT BUT BUT,,, you just don't reply. You never get back to people. Yes, you don't owe me a living. I also don't owe the old people a living when I give up my seat to them when I'm on the MRT. But I do it anyway. You don't reply to people because you owe them a living lah.

3. I didn't reply to you ? Please lah.. You are the rude one. Now trying very hard to save face.

The world does not revolve around me. I know that. I do not think the world revolves around me, despite your writing that tries to depict that. This is your feeble attempt to discredit LM or it is something that in conjured in your imagination. And please do not try to sound like a heroine and drag other Christians into your argument.

What is the real problem ? You make promises and simply cannot fulfill them. You are just a good sales person who does fantastic marketing but utterly fail to deliver. That is your problem. That is the reason why I return to complete the story with regards to your comments. I don't want people to think that we had a fulfilling email discussion based on your sweet comments. I want people to know that you wrote to me and then disappear. RUDE, whether you have exams or not.

You said you will get back in 2-3 days. You did not say anything more. Then vanished. Nothing. No sound from you. You expect me to know you are in exams?

Who is the discourteous one? YOU lah. Don't say 2-3 days when you cannot commit. Then you don't simply drop me a email to explain that you are in exams and cannot reply. Hey, you still don't understand. Study so much but never learn how to get back to people.

Hey, I don't want to turn Stanley's Blog into a battleground. If you have any new and truthful angle to this whole thing, then you comment ok. Check what you have written before and write based on that. Don't try to invent new things to save your own face.

The Logical Mouse said...

Here's the actual email exchanges:

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The Logical Mouse to amethystar
show details Apr 21 Reply

Hi Sarah

>> I was from a Buddhist/taoist background in the past and I understand exactly where you are coming from when you said "the devil is also capable of doing this kind of show". I'm more than willing to explain and clarify any misunderstandings with you through email if you are sincere to find out more.

I'm hearing you.
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amethystar to me
show details Apr 21 Reply

hi (:

really glad to hear from you
i'm sorry are you "the logical mouse" or "mouse"? I was under the impression that these were two different people!
Given that I have respected you by leaving behind my name, would you mind sharing with me yours as well, so that it'd be easier for me to address you?

i'll be emailing you my explanations and arguments in 2-3 days time, in the midst of something at the moment! please be patient with me :)

thanks,
sarah
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The Logical Mouse to amethystar
show details Apr 21 Reply

You can call me mouse. That's what I'm known as.....
Logical Mouse and Mouse are the same.
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The Logical Mouse to amethystar
show details May 1 Reply

BYE
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