Wednesday, September 2, 2009

Grace and Law Made Simple To Understand

In my previous post, I attached a youtube video entitled “Grace and Law made simple to understand” which showed a preacher using children as visual aids to explain Grace and Law. Have you watched it yet? Did you understand what he was trying to say? Did you understand the true intention of his “live powerpoint” presentation? I think many of you probably missed it because the preacher was speaking very fast and you were probably distracted by the audience (and perhaps you yourself) repeating those key words after him.

Let me again attach the video here, and break down the final portion of what he said and you can then see his “logic” better and understand what his main point was:

Today, you’ve got men fighting God’s LAW … in church! And they say that the LAW is done away with.

Now if you do away with the LAW, the bible says that where there is no LAW, there is no SIN.

And if you do away with sin, you don’t need GRACE, which is pardon for SIN which is breaking the LAW.

And if you don’t need GRACE, you certainly don’t need a SAVIOUR who died that we might have GRACE, which is pardon for SIN which is breaking the LAW.

And in that case, you don’t need a GOSPEL because it is the story of a SAVIOUR who died that we might have GRACE, which is pardon for SIN which is breaking the LAW.

And if that be true, what in the world do you need a PREACHER, and if you don’t need him, you might as well throw away the CHURCH.

Now, do you understand what that preacher is trying to say? He is saying that the church needs God’s LAW and if the LAW is done away with (which is what GRACE preachers are preaching), then ultimately (based on his above logic)the CHURCH should be done away with too.

What that preacher demonstrated in the video is deceptively persuasive and seems logical at first glance BUT his logic is flawed because he did not understand (and therefore did not explain) how and why the Law was done away with.

In the video, the preacher brought all seven children up onto the stage together, and named them from right to left:

1. SIN

2. LAW

3. GRACE

4. SAVIOUR

5. GOSPEL

6. PREACHER

7. CHURCH

If I were to do the video, I would not have brought all seven children up onto the stage together. As I don’t have the time and resources to make a real video, imagine with me as I walk you through my video:

Scene 1:

I would bring only the first child up and introduce her: “This is SIN. SIN entered the world through Adam, and Death entered the world through SIN but because the LAW had not yet come, SIN was not charged to men’s account as there was no law to transgress.”

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.)

Romans 5:12-13 (NKJV)

Scene 2:

The second child comes up to join the first child: “This is the LAW. God gave the LAW so that men can see how truly sinful they were. The LAW is holy but it cannot make you righteous; it only makes you conscious of SIN. The LAW was also given to lead us to Christ, the personification of God’s GRACE.”

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Romans 3:20 (NIV)

So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:24 (NIV)

Scene 3:

The third child comes up to join the first two children: “This is GRACE. God found fault with the covenant of LAW as it only brought death to men. The LAW cannot make men righteous and so He decided to cut another covenant to replace the LAW. This is the covenant of GRACE.”

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Romans 3:21-24 (NKJV)

17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

John 1:17 (NIV)

Scene 4:

The fourth child joins the other 3 children: “This is the SAVIOUR. God sent His only Son, Jesus Christ, to be the Saviour of the world. Jesus Christ’s death on the cross is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world.”

2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:2 (NIV)

Scene 5:

The first and second child ie. SIN and LAW leave the stage while the third and fourth child ie. GRACE and SAVIOUR stay: “Christ, through his finished work on the cross, has fulfilled the LAW and therefore the covenant of the LAW is done away with. It has been made obsolete and replaced by the covenant of GRACE. SIN has also been done away with because through His once and for all sacrifice, Christ has paid the penalty for and taken away the sin of the world.”

29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 1:29 (NIV)

1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Hebrews 10:1, 11-14 (NIV)

6 But now Jesus, our High Priest, has been given a ministry that is far superior to the old priesthood, for he is the one who mediates for us a far better covenant with God, based on better promises.

7 If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second covenant to replace it.

Hebrews 8:6-7 (NLT)

Scene 6:

The five and sixth child ie. GOSPEL and PREACHER join the third and fourth child ie. GRACE and SAVIOUR on stage: “This is the GOSPEL, the good news that we are forever made perfect in God’s eyes because we are in Christ. It is not about what we must do to get right with God but all about what the SAVIOUR has done on the cross. We are made righteous through faith in Christ, not through obeying the LAW. We don’t deserve it but God sacrificed His only Son, Jesus Christ to reconcile Himself with us. We just need to receive this GRACE to reconcile ourselves with Him. The PREACHER has to preach this GOSPEL so that all can receive His GRACE.”

10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

Romans 10:10-15

Scene 7:

The seventh child ie. CHURCH joins the third, fourth, fifth and sixth child on stage: “Those who believe the GOSPEL are the CHURCH. The CHURCH will grow stronger and stronger, and larger and larger as more and more people listen to the PREACHER preach, and believe the GOSPEL of Christ Jesus, our SAVIOUR and personification of God’s GRACE who died on the cross, fulfilling the requirements of the LAW, and paid the penalty for and took away the SIN of the world.”

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Matt 5:17 (NIV)

9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Romans 13:9-10 (NIV)

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

John 3:16-17 (NIV)

At the end of the video, there are only 5 children left on stage; the first two ie. SIN and LAW have been done away with because of the finished work of the cross ….. and 5 is the number of GRACE.

20 comments:

The Logical Mouse said...

Reference 29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

So do Christians still sin ? For those to received Grace ? YES !

Therefore in scene 5, Sin cannot leave the stage. If Sin leaves the stage. the Law cannot leave the stage.

Think a bit further. If Sin has really left the stage, then we are not able to utter the word "Sin" anymore. If we can still utter the word sin, it's still with us. Same for "Law"

Alleluia

yaso said...

Dear Logical Mouse,
Why do man die? Because the first Adam took from the wrong tree - the law. And why do man live? Because the last Adam (Jesus Christ) gave us the right tree... the tree of life.

He took our sin which is the first sin of Adam in exchange He gave us the first fruit of righteousness. So if the first fruit is holy so is the lump. (Rom 11:16) But you have a choice... Life or Death?

Why still go back to the wrong tree? Choose life! Live a new life from the right tree! Hear Him!

The Logical Mouse said...

If Jesus took Sin from us, we would not Sin anymore.

If we still Sin, that implies Sin still exist, whether you are a Grace Christian or not.

Therefore, Sin cannot leave the Stage.

Angie said...

dear logical mouse

When Jesus died on the cross, He carried the sins of the entire human race. Even the sins that we haven't commit because we weren't born.

The sins that we're committing everyday and will be committing for the years to come, it has all be taken care of at the cross. So is my unborned grandchildren & great-grandchildren's sins.

The work He did on the cross was perfectly perfected and completely completed. No sins were missed out.

Do we have a mutual understanding & agreement on the above?

So in response to your comment, Sin can and have left the stage simply because Jesus has taken them all on the cross! :)

The Logical Mouse said...

Angie

I heard you.
But how do you reconcile the fact that there is still sin NOW and for a long time to come. How do you try to visualise something that exist in front of you, to be something that does not exist ?
If it something that you can really see ? Or you go by faith ?
If it's something you can really see, explain to me.
If it's something by faith, then you are still seeing sin, it's just that Jesus tell you it does not exist, right ?
Not trying to be difficult here. I'm just trying to understand you better.

Angie said...

Dear Logical Mouse

The sin(noun) that Christ took on the cross was the transgression of divine laws by the human race. Christ did not remove sinful actions & deeds we commit or see ppl committing everyday.

IT IS a fallen world we're living in. An imperfect world with imperfect ppl. But by God's immeasurable grace & unfarthomable wisdom, we can learn to trust in the Perfect Saviour to express His life through us. :)

"Christ in us, the (only)hope of glory!" Col 1:27 (brackets mine)

Recommended reading:

http://gracewalkministries.blogspot.com/2009/08/kudzu-christians.html

Blessings,

Daughter Of Sarah said...

Stan, love the post! And Angie- I totally agree with you.

Sorry LM, I see your conflict but what Angie says is true. This is a fallen world but we believers are in this world but not of this world.

Sin might not have left the world's stage, which it will when Christ comes again, but right now, Sin has definitely been wiped off our slate when we believe in His redemption through the Cross and enter into resurrected life in Him.

It does not mean that we don't still make mistakes, but it is no longer imputed upon us who are righteous in Christ so that as He is in this world, so are we.

Praise the LORD!

The Logical Mouse said...

Angie

I read the recommended reading.

Your writing suggests that there are 2 types of Sin. "The sin (noun) that Christ took on the cross was the transgression of divine laws by the human race." This implies that Christ took away the Type I Sin due to the LAW! And Jesus died on the cross did not take away the Type II Sin which is the "sinful actions and deeds we commit".

If you want to put them in 2 categories, fine with me. So long as Type II Sin still sides with us here and now… your argument supports my point: Sin cannot leave the stage.

DOS

So you agree with Stan and Angie, AND you agree with me also? Cause you just said “Sin might not have left the world's stage”. What’s your stand really?

Would all Christian think like you all do here in this blog or just this community thinks that way?

Angie said...

Logical Mouse,

Mabbe you wanna ask yourself what is it exactly that you're seeking to understand.

Like you, I used to seek for answers. And I seek everywhere but God. I wanted to know if tongues has really ceased or not.. if ladies should have their heads veiled or not.. why there are so many denominations and which is accurate.. There was simply many questions in my head that i went round & round seeking. Until one day, i felt the Lord asking me if all that matters. When i think hard about it, I realised it didn't. What mattered most to me was my relationship with my Friend & constant Companion, Jesus. When I realised again He was the central focus of my life, everything else seems negligible & trifle.

Do you have a relationship with Jesus? :)

"You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." Jer 29:13

The Logical Mouse said...

I want to know whether Sin has left the stage. And I think I have presented a good case.

I don't understand why you think that I'm seeking more than that. Isn't it clear from my comments. But as you have said, you "like to seek for answers" ;-)))

The Logical Mouse said...

Oh ya... by the way. Mal still owes me that Damascus experience. Can you please ask him to keep his promise and pray for me ?

And Stan has not thanked me for helping him tone down his sarcastic comments... after I told him off a few times !

Stanley Wong said...

Hi Logical Mouse,

Thank you dear Logical Mouse for your observation and backhanded compliment that I have indeed toned down my comments ;-) However, let me stress that I have toned down my sarcasm not because of you.

Firstly, the Holy Spirit had been speaking to me about my sarcastic comments during that time period when I was dealing with annoying anonymouses; the Holy Spirit was telling me that I was reacting to them out of my ego and therefore His grace could not flow through my words.

I was initially in denial and tried to justify my sarcasm by saying that it does prove my points which I still feel is valid but the Holy Spirit made me realize that while I was winning the battles of wit, I was losing the war by losing the focus of my blog ie. Christ and His finished work on the cross.

Secondly, all these were confirmed to me when a very good friend (ie. not you, dear logical mouse) told me how sad she was that I seemed to have changed to a very different person from whom she knew for years and how my blog was not blessing people like before.

I thank my friend for her frank comments, and I also thank the Holy Spirit for sending her to confirm what He was telling me in His soft gentle voice. I toned down my sarcastic comments and even removed some of the "offending" articles because the Holy Spirit told me so.

By the way, you must have also noticed that I have not been answering the questions you have posting here. This is because, if I recall correctly, you have said that you are NOT a Christian, and I have mentioned before too that my blog is not meant to be a platform to convince non-Christians of our faith but rather is meant for Christians to discuss things taught in churches, such as Grace and Law, based on biblical logic.

Anyway, thank you Logical Mouse for continuing to pay attention to my blog. Hopefully, one day (may that be sooner rather than later)you will indeed receive that Damascus experience (which Mal does not owe you and only the Lord can give you) and then you will be able to read this blog in a different Light.

The Logical Mouse said...

Hi Stan

I have predicted exactly how you would response!!! So typical. Everything is God's work. Nobody else’s. So typical. Good or bad. It's God's work. Hey, I'm not saying it's not God's work. It just that... you are really so, so ,so typical !!!

I'm amaze at your obstinacy. The Holy Spirit speaks to you and yet you can still dare to try and justify your sarcasm. Well, I guess at that point, you probably think you know better lah!! What about now? Hmm...

You also notice that I'm not addressing the comments to you? But as for this point about who leaves the stage... you all lost already lah... You all already self contradicting... your only redemption is to say I'm not a Christian. OK. You win.

About the Damascus experience, hey, you really have to settle that with Mal. He's the one to say he will pray for my DE but obviously he didn't lor.

PS: I think you didn't the battle of wit. You actually lost (ok..ok..ok.. Give you some saving grace... in your mind, you win, ok?) which is why you started listening to HS again. Be Honest.

Stanley Wong said...

Hi Logical Mouse,

I agree with you ... yes, I am stubborn. I stubbornly believe that Daddy God so loved me that He sent His only Son, Jesus to die for my sins and "since he did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won’t he also give us everything else?" (Rom 8:32)

Hence, I stubbornly believe that God works in my life, and if I stubbornly refuse to listen to the Holy Spirit's soft gentle voice, God loves me so much that He sends a good friend of mine to talk to me.

Since you are not a Christian, you don't have a relationship with Daddy God and therefore you have not received the Holy Spirit. You'd probably don't understand what we mean by the Holy Spirit's soft gentle voice nor would you understand the things we are discussing on this blog because "No one can know a person’s thoughts except that person’s own spirit, and no one can know God’s thoughts except God’s own Spirit. And we have received God’s Spirit (not the world’s spirit), so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us.

When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit’s words to explain spiritual truths." (1 Cor 2:11-13)

The Logical Mouse said...

Stan

1. When you are stubborn, you would not hear. The HS speaks to you but you listen to your good friend instead. I really don’t see who has a higher place in your heart.

2. So much for your Biblical logic as you claims. Biblical logic would tell you to discard His Holy Words to you? Sound more to me like human illogic in disguise.

3. You claim to have received the HS. So does all Christians and yet the different denomination argue with each other. Well, you “respectfully” disagree with somebody in “Questions Teachings”. So? Either he has received HS or you and both claim to have. Many more examples in this world hor…

4. This “Sin left the stage” article is another good example. Angie, DOS and you all claim to have HS. Yet you all contradict each other. DOS even said “Sin might not have left the world's stage” while you are so sure that Sin has left the stage. Please lah… So which of you has really received the HS that you understand using biblical logic?

5. So my point is…. You still really think what you interpret is correct? If so, your sarcasm, obstinacy and arrogance would disappear into thin air. I will only see a humble man.

6. A person who is obstinate and arrogant would not write anything good for he sees the world through spectacles. The left lens is shielded by stubbornness and the right is shielded by pride. His logic is also blocked by the 2 devils.

7. “Since you are not a Christian, you don't have a relationship with Daddy God” Please do not claim a monopoly on God. God does not belong to you. God loves the world, not Christians only. How do you know that “you don't have a relationship with Daddy God”. You only know what you know… you don’t know what you don’t know. No more.

Stanley Wong said...

Hi Logical Mouse,

You are entitled to your own opinion and my blog is not meant to change it. You can feel or say whatever you want about me or my blog, it does not matter to me since you are not a friend, just an anonymous visitor.

However, I would like to clarify a few points that you made as others reading this may also be similarly mistaken.

1. If you read carefully what I wrote, I said that my friend confirmed to me what the Holy Spirit was telling me, and I finally decided to humble myself and obey the Holy Spirit.

3. Yes, I agree with you that different denominations interpret and teach from the bible differently. That is why I started this blog: so that the things we hear in church can be discussed and different points of view put forth for the individual Christian to digest and decide for him/herself what he/she wants to accept.

7. Yes, I agree with you, God loves the world, in fact "God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." (John 3:16-17)

However, please note that my blog is a Christian blog, therefore when I say that "you don't have a relationship with Daddy God", it is in the context of the Daddy God revealed in the bible, and not some universal God or the unknown God or the God mentioned in other religions.

I don't mean to say that non-Christians have no relationship with God in general but in the context of Christianity and my "interaction" with you, I am saying that since you,dear Logical Mouse, have said that you are not a Christian, hence from a biblical point of view, you have no relationship with my Daddy God of the bible. Nothing more.

Malcolm Loh said...

Hey LM

We will be meeting up again at Stan's stall this Friday, 11 September from 2pm to 5pm.

Hope to see you there.

I have been praying for a Damascus Experience for you but it is Jesus who will be the one to give it to you, not me, as Stan has rightly pointed out.

But if you want a bowl of mango pudding, that one I can treat you to this Friday :-)

Stanley Wong said...

Hi Logical Mouse,

Let me now test your resolve as this stubborn and arrogant self give you one more reply.

You said, "But YOU must believe that God Loves The World AND NOT CHRISTIANS Alone."

===> In fact I do believe that God Loves The World, because the bible says so, and I even quoted you the verses (John 3:16-17).

----------------------------------
You said, "I dare say He loves me as much as you, and probably MORE for I’ve never limit Him to a “Mega-God”

===> I agree that God loves you as much as me, but definitely NOT MORE than me because God loves everybody equally. Again, I say this based on the bible - "Then Peter replied, “I see very clearly that God shows no favoritism. In every nation he accepts those who fear him and do what is right." (Acts 10:34-35)

----------------------------------
You said ,"YOU really have NO RIGHT to claim a Monopoly over God for yourself just because you are a Christian. And don’t try to dance around it by saying it is in the context of the BIBLE."

===> I never claimed a Monopoly over God just because I am a Christian. You are the one who "bestowed" that "honour" upon me.

However, I do gladly declare that I have a personal relationship with Daddy God because I have accepted Christ as my Lord and Saviour. Besides me, there are many others who enjoy this personal relationship with Daddy God as well because they have also received Christ as their Lord and Saviour eg. Angie, Malcolm, Geri, Jeffrey, Kat, etc ... and we are collectively known as Christians.

The holy book for us Christians is the BIBLE and therefore we learn about our Daddy God from the BIBLE, and the things we learn in church and discuss on this blog are also in the context of the BIBLE.

----------------------------------
You said,"Stan, you are still very worldly not Godly. Dwell on that. It will make you a better Christian."

===> Allow me to return to you the wise words which you yourself have spoken - "You only know what you know… you don’t know what you don’t know. No more."

Joshen said...

I think i'm lost.. lol.. should i even attempt to come in at this stage of the debate? lol.. would be nice if we can summarize what the actual topic is... lol.. been participating in a few discussion of my own on SGForums.. i'm in the mood to do lots of bible study so hit me with questions that are hard to answer... hehe..

Daughter Of Sarah said...

LOl Joshen. =)

Whilst I believe that God died for all mankind, I believe the revelation of the Holy Spirit only comes to those who have chosen to receive His salvation through Christ. (Stan, Mal, Angie, Joshen - correct me if I am wrong about this. ^.^)

Hence I find it bemusing that someone who does not have the HS revelation is making comments on HS revelation to a believer who has HS revelation.

It is like never tasting Carbonara before but telling someone who has eaten Carbonara before that it should taste like Hainanese Chicken Rice.