Friday, October 9, 2009

Fair Warning - A Reply To godwordistruth

In his comment to my post "Fair Warning", godwordistruth tried to show up Andrew Wommack's "wrong" teaching through a scripture passage:

Just comparing one tiny portion of Andrew Wommack's teachings and test it to what the Word of God actually teaches:

Andrew Wommack said:
"On the contrary, it is very comforting to know that God only has good things in store for me. Any problems in my life are from the devil, of my own making, or just the results of life on a fallen planet. My heavenly Father has never done me any harm and never will. I KNOW that."

"Likewise, I don't believe it blesses our heavenly Father for us to blame Him for all the problems that come into our lives. Sure, He will comfort us when we turn to Him in the midst of our problems, but He doesn't create the negative circumstances that hurt our lives."

Source: http://www.awmi.net/extra/article/sovereignty_god

The Word of God said:
1 Peter 4:11-19
"in order that in everything GOD MAY BE GLORIFIED through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.

But rejoice insofar as YOU SHARE CHRIST's SUFFERINGS, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

If you are INSULTED FOR THE NAME OF CHRIST, YOU ARE BLESSED, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.

But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler.

YET IF ANYONE SUFFERS AS A CHRISTIAN, let him not be ashamed, but LET him GLORIFY GOD IN THAT NAME. .... ....
...
Therefore let THOSE WHO SUFFER ACCORDING TO GOD's WILL entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good.

The theology that Andrew Wommack is teaching (as seen here) is clearly not what the scriptures actually say.

Does one need to be careful about Andrew Wommack's teachings ?

Shalom



godwordistruth did not really state which part of AW's teachings is wrong in relation to the scripture passage quoted but I am guessing that godwordistruth is trying to say that he disagrees with AW's belief that "Any problems in my life are from the devil, of my own making, or just the results of life on a fallen planet. My heavenly Father has never done me any harm and never will. He doesn't create the negative circumstances that hurt our lives.", and that 1 Peter 4:11-19 proves that God does create problems or negative circumstances for us.

Let us take a good look, line by line, at the verses quoted and see if God does create problems for us:

"in order that in everything GOD MAY BE GLORIFIED through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

I don't see any reference to God causing problems, do you?


Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.

The verse says fiery trial will come upon you BUT does it specifically say that GOD causes the fiery trial? NO!


But rejoice insofar as YOU SHARE CHRIST's SUFFERINGS, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.
The verse says rejoice as we share Christ's sufferings. Let me ask you: WHO caused Christ's sufferings? WHO slapped Jesus? WHO beat up Jesus? WHO whipped Jesus? WHO tried to push Jesus off a cliff? WHO crucified Jesus?


If you are INSULTED FOR THE NAME OF CHRIST, YOU ARE BLESSED, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.

But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler.

The verse says if you are INSULTED FOR THE NAME OF CHRIST. Let me ask: WHO insulted you? Can and will God INSULT you FOR THE NAME OF CHRIST?


YET IF ANYONE SUFFERS AS A CHRISTIAN, let him not be ashamed, but LET him GLORIFY GOD IN THAT NAME. .... ....

The verse says "if anyone suffers as a Christian" but it does NOT say God causes you to suffer as a Christian.


Therefore let THOSE WHO SUFFER ACCORDING TO GOD's WILL entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good.


The verse says "those who suffer" but it does NOT say God causes you to suffer. You ask, "but what about the part 'according to God's will?" According to God's will just means that your suffering is for the glory of God; it does NOT mean that God caused it. This is to differentiate from sufferings that don't bring glory to God which is contrasted in the earlier verse - "But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler."


Clearly, the scripture quoted by godwordistruth does not prove that AW's teaching is wrong.

Let me quote some scripture too:
John 16:33 - "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”"

Take note that Jesus says you will have tribulation but Jesus does not say "God (or I) will give you tribulation".

The bible is very precise - take a look at John 10:10 - "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly."

Jesus specifically says the thief (ie. the devil) comes to steal, kill and destroy, and Jesus also specifically says that HE has come to give us ABUNDANT LIFE, NOT abundant suffering.

So, let me ask: what is wrong with that "one tiny portion of Andrew Wommack's teachings"?

20 comments:

Aric said...

The thief in John 10:10 is not the devil. I encourage you to re-read John 10 and identify the thief.

Also, according to God's will does NOT mean for the glory of God. It means what it says: the suffering happening is according to God's will. He has ordained that it would happen.

Stanley Wong said...

Hi Aric,

Obviously you have identified who the thief really is, so why don't you share with us here and we can all be the wiser.

Malcolm Loh said...

If one is never sure when one's earthly father would embrace or punish him, would he dare draw near to him?

How much more if one is unsure about His Heavenly Father's motives and intentions?

The trouble with believers like TWIT and Aric is that they have a wrong negative opinion of God and therefore will never be able to enjoy an intimate relationship with Him. We should be feeling sorry for them. They've been given a sports car but they are settling for a broken-down bicycle.

The Logical Mouse said...

Didn't Moses lead the people into the desert for 40 years ? Who decided that to be done ? Not God ?

godwordistruth said...

"To give truth to him who loves it not is but to give him plentiful material for misinterpretation."

George MacDonald, 19th century writer

Stanley Wong said...

"I wish it were never one's duty to quarrel with anybody; I do so hate it: but not to do it sometimes is to smile in the devil's face."

George MacDonald, 19th century writer
(source: http://www.giga-usa.com/quotes/authors/george_macdonald_a002.htm)

STEPHANIE said...

Hi Logical Mouse,

Lord saved the people of Israel from their oppressive Egyptian master. God even come as cloud to shelter them from the hot sun in the day and God became fire to warmth them in the night. This is the Grace and Mercy in operation even thou they complain a lot!

They told Lord whatever you say we will do at Mt Sinai. God has no choice but had to give them the Law when they ask for it. Under law, those who disobey died. The law cannot bend. You must obey all 10 of them. Otherwise, the penalty is death.

God give the law for us to see the end of us and to look onto Jesus. And bec Jesus died for all of us and done a perfect work to be judged for all our sins, past, present and future, and Abba FATHER promised that he will not impute sin on us. We are now the Righteousness of God.

Lord want to bless them Canaan but as majority could not believe He is that good and speak on what they see, they could not be blessed.

Only Caleb and Joshua believed and speak on faith. So Lord has no choice but to wait for those who disbelieve to die and bring the new generation plus Caleb and Joshua, who believed into the promise land.

Jesus is the same always. Only those of faith are blessed.

Shalom!

The Logical Mouse said...

Stephanie

I quite disturbed by your writing. While you try to impress me that you are a devoted Christian, your negative tone in your writing gave you away. What do you mean by "God has no choice but…."? It shows a lack of faith in God. You don’t believe He is all mighty. Please remember, as a Christian, you are supposed to say, and deeply believe that, God is in control not “no choice but….”

And you say it again “So Lord has no choice …” I can’t believe what I read ! This is the first time I heard a Christian belittling Him with such words.

Stephanie, from what you write, I conclude that you are making use of God for Blessings. Blessing is the focus of your worship. To me, that’s Greed. If you are not blessed, for whatever reason, you will not stop being a Christian. I don’t see you really love Him like a Christian should.

What a fair weather Christian.

So, I shall discount your words from now on, as I don’t think I’ll benefit from it.

Charles J Lake said...

logical mouse

good job putting a fellow christian down just to prove that you are above her in knowledge of God, and that you know exactly how a christian should behave. I'm sure your resolve in defending christianity will put you in good stead when God looks at your KPIs at the end of days.

Malcolm Loh said...

Steph

You will notice that Stan and I have stopped engaging Logical Mouse because the gospel is foolishness to those of the world.

It is like a chicken talking to a duck so better to save your breath :-)

The Logical Mouse said...

Charles J Lake

From what Stephanie has said, she worship God for Blessings. I've asked her if the blessings did not happen, would she still believe in God, 2 times. No answer. What does that mean ? I read the history and Christians go through extreme challengers in their faith and they stand up to it. This is real faith.

Well, for those in NCC, just monitor the progress of this lady lor. Luck changes. When bad times comes, let's see how she can stand up to the challenges.

I know what's on her mind... God will continue to bless her regardless. She has strong faith. Ok. Let's watch.

Joshen said...

I shall say this with as much care as i can, but I believe the phrase "God has no choice" comes into play when God cannot do somethings, or else it would contradict His Word.

If God says : "If you do not keep all my statutes, this and this will happen to you," then God has no choice but to let them happen, otherwise He will not be just and fair.. A judge cannot "close one eye"..

In the context of this discussion, its not really that God has no choice, but He chose to give us free will, and if He were to ignore our free will, then what would be the point in the first place? Therefore, He would not force the people not to ask for the Law, and if they wanted it, fine, He would give it to them..

In the second mention of "no choice", i also believe what happened was even though God had pronounced that they(unbelievers) would not see the land, He was merciful enough not to slaughter the whole lot instantly, but instead let that unbelieving generation pass naturally... Also, by doing this, we see His wonder and faithfulness in the case of Joshua and Caleb, where despite having been made to wait for the unbelievers to die, they themselves were renewed in their strength and were well able to take the land..

Hope this has encouraged you Steph =)


Remember that God is Good, all the time!

The Logical Mouse said...

Joshen

What you are talking about is what Stan would term "Biblical Logical".

What I've spoken is her attitude towards God. This is how she sees God. How come, I as a non Christian, don't even dare to think of such a phrase "God has no choice". This is my my attitude towards Him.

Ya, of course, Stan will invoke that phrase "you are not Christian..."

Silk said...

I worship him for blessings. There I've said it. You've got a problem with that, bring it up with the fellow up there.

You pile shame and guilt, LM. In all honesty, what's the shame in that?

The Logical Mouse said...

Silk

Ok, you win. I'm very sorry to you. Making use of God for blessing should be shameless ;-)

Derrick said...

Hi Stanley

I'm curious - how do you explain Ps 119:67, 71, 75? David was definitely a believer in God, and he was afflicted by God so that he will obey His laws. David thinks that God's affliction comes from His faithfulness. Is this contradictory to what you believe?

Thank you.

Stanley Wong said...

Hi Derrick,

Let me think about this n I'll get back to you, maybe I'll write a post about this ...

STEPHANIE said...

Hi All,

After gone for a few days to soak in Jesus' LOVE, today, Lord give me wisdom to answer LM on if no blessing will I still believe him.

Generally, a Christian life is about the fighting to get back to Lord daily, to come to His feet to hear him like Mary.

In this 3 years walk, Lord at times let me feel totally none of His Presences or whateverso.

Through the learning of Jesus had done a perfect work on the Cross for me, ALL my sins were forgiven and God does not impute sin on me, there is no more condemnation, I declared strongly that I am the Righteousness of God in Christ and Lord Jesus at the Cross has done a perfect work for me.

Lord tested, devil also tested. The thing is, are you going to stay away and say Jesus is not real or what so ever?

Why Abba father love me so much that even in my divorce, he blessed me a peaceful transaction and everything moves so fast that those friends that gone through said mine was so fast, by 2-3 mths. Even the actual court appointment was so fast, finished in 5 mins. Lord even promise to bring a better man to me. Why I could be so peaceful even with such a trauma event in my life?

I have Jesus, the Prince of Shalom. As I look to him, He stabled me and lifted me up high.

Christianity is about be like Jesus. It's about having hope.

Through right believing, I received right living. Daily, I spend time with Lord, by His Grace. He gives me wisdom to do my daily stuff. All this is his blessings.

I need not even need to bother about being divorce. Hubby is buying over this apartment so that there is roof over my head and my girl's. He willing give me enough to spend. We are like friends, no quarrel, no arguments. Life still as usual. Surely, only Lord could bless such.

Hehe...my huby colleague was surprised that we still sleeping on the same bed.

Blessed Life? Yes.

It's how you look to Jesus and strongly believe in Him. Even in trials, I do not stay long in them. The moment I look to Lord, He pulled me out of it. Glory Glory! How not to love Him much!

Shalom!

STEPHANIE said...

Hi Derrick,

May I give my 2 cents.

David came before Jesus. At that time, Jesus had not go to the cross yet. He live under the LAW.

Under the law, if you break it, you suffer it. In Psalm 119:67, David said that 'before I was afflicted I went astray'.

As David was not redeemed by the blood of Jesus, he was judged. But Lord judged with Mercy. For under the law, you fail one means you failed all. The penalty is death. Lord did not kill him.

However, since 2009 years ago, Jesus was judged on the Cross for us. All our sins, past, presence and future were all judged in Jesus. All the God's wrath was burnt in Jesus and Lord Jesus cried out in the end of it and proclaimed 'It is Done!'

As Jesus had done a perfect work for us, we need not suffer the same thing again.

When adversary attack, manifest Lord's hand to judge the adversary or take Holy Comm to claim your healing or proclaim Word of Christ to fight against the attack.

Glory to Lord Jesus! Amen Amen!

Stanley Wong said...

Hi Derrick,

Let's take a look at Psalm 119:67 - "Before I was afflicted I went astray,But now I keep Your word." - take note the verse says "I was afflicted"; it does not say "I was afflicted BY GOD".

Psalm 119:71 - "It is good for me that I have been afflicted,That I may learn Your statutes." - again, take note that the verse says "I have been afflicted"; it does not say "I have been afflicted BY GOD".

Psalm 119:75 - "I know, O LORD, that Your judgments are right, And that in faithfulness You have afflicted me." - this verse does say specifically "You (ie. God) have afflicted me.", and it seems to contradict what I believe ie. God does not cause bad things to happen to believers.

However, according to Dr Robert Young, author of "Young's Analytical Concordance and Hints To Bible Interpretation", in the Hebrew language, verbs can also be in the permissive tense (rather than just causative), which the English language does not provide for.

I have not found the proof yet but I believe in my heart that v75 is in the permissive tense. If and when I can somehow get in contact with someone familiar with Biblical Hebrew to interpret this verse and confirm this, I shall report it here.

There is an interesting article explaining the use of the permissive tense in Deuteronomy 28 which the English language cannot adequately translate and hence erroneously cause (pun intended) believers to believe that God does cause the bad things listed in the chapter to happen to them - http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/chasten.html